Nataly Kogan on Why Creativity is Key to Our Well-Being

Happiness expert and Happier Now author Nataly Kogan joins me to explore the powerful connection between creativity and well-being. Whether your art takes the form of photography, music, or any other type of self-expression, we discuss why creativity plays a vital role in overall happiness.

In our conversation, I share how relinquishing years of creative resistance led to greater fulfillment, new opportunities, and tangible success in my life. Rather than focusing on the technical aspects of photography, we delve into how to unlock your full creative potential and view creativity as a key to lasting happiness. Prepare to discover just how profoundly your creative pursuits can transform your life.

Transcript

00:00:00:28 - 00:00:28:15

You're being is creative and it's essential to happiness, well-being. Because if you don't allow yourself to express yourself in whatever way, like for Ken, it's photography. For me, it's art. And speaking for you, it could be anything at all. But if you stifle that because you don't think it's what you should do is you're stifling your being your humanness and you cannot truly feel happiness if you're stifling a part of yourself. 

00:00:31:18 - 00:00:53:03

Welcome to the Big Photo Hunt podcast, a show where we talk with aspiring and professional photographers to help us all grow and improve our photography together. I'm your host, Ken Deckinger. If you're one of our community members and you'd like to be a guest on the show, please visit big photo hunt.com for more information. 

00:01:03:27 - 00:01:34:17

Today's episode is a personal one and one that I think, or at least I hope many of you can relate to. As photographers or creatives, we're going to talk about happiness and creativity. And so my guest today is Nataly Kogan as the founder of a company called Happier. She's the successful author of two books, Happier Now and The Awesome Human Project. She's a public speaker and like how photography came to me when I wasn't expecting it. 

00:01:34:19 - 00:02:02:15

She's a talented painter. Nataly is also someone that I've been friends with for 20 years. And here's the kicker She's personally had an outsized impact on my life. But I don't think 20 years ago either of us would have expected to be here today saying that. Yet without my friendship with Nataly, I don't think I'd be here right now talking to you at all. Nataly just unloaded on you and dropped a weight on your shoulder. 

00:02:03:24 - 00:02:11:04

No, you did not. You did the opposite. You put a light in my soul. Thinking about that? I love that. No weight dropped. 

00:02:11:06 - 00:02:20:05

Well, welcome to the show, and I am super excited to have you here. I actually say that for all my episodes because I only actually like to have people on that I'm super excited about. 

00:02:20:07 - 00:02:23:05

I know, but you're super, super excited. For me, your double, super. 

00:02:23:07 - 00:02:41:20

Double, super double, super excited for you. And I want to talk about my journey because I think my journey connects to your journey and it all relates to this idea of happiness and how creativity and happiness are tied together. But I want to start to tell everyone your story. 

00:02:42:05 - 00:03:13:00

So my story in the shortest form is that, as Ken said, if you told me, don't know, ten years ago, 20 years ago, that I would be sitting here talking to Ken and all of you about creativity and happiness and finding your true purpose in life. I would laugh you out of the room because I didn't know anything about that stuff. And why would I be an expert on that stuff? I grew up in the Soviet Union, was called the Soviet Union at the time, and I was a refugee with my parents when I was a teenager. So we we came to the States with nothing. 

00:03:13:04 - 00:03:45:03

And that, I think, is a really important point in my life because it really defines something for me. It kind of it was so hard that I started to look at life as a struggle so really own that was like, okay, life is supposed to be a struggle and you struggle, struggle. You work really hard, you do really great things. You take care of your family, build a great career, and then at some point maybe you do something you enjoy, but you got to struggle to earn it. So I did that for 20 years or so. I did all kinds of things in finance and technology. In fact, that's how Ken and I met. I was in venture capital. 

00:03:45:05 - 00:04:20:22

For those of you who don't know what it is, but it's an industry that basically funds and gives money to startup companies so they can grow. So I was in venture capital and Ken came. We met because Ken had started this company called Hurry Date, and he came with his co-founders to raise money from our firm. I accomplished a lot of taking care of my family. It was all wonderful things and I was struggling all the time. I never really felt fulfilled. You know, of course, some things made me happy, but I, like, lived in this constant state of struggle and dread, but thought eventually, at some point, I can earn the right to be happy. 

00:04:20:24 - 00:05:04:03

I can, like, earn the right to relax and do something and didn't. That didn't happen. But what happened is six, seven years ago, I suffered a really debilitating burnout slash, to be honest breakdown, like I call it a breakdown of being. I just I just couldn't I couldn't function that way anymore. And it was really scary. It was really scary. But it was a gift in retrospect, because that is actually the reason that I am here, because for the first time in my life, I had to start thinking about things like, how can I do things that I care about and actually find joy? What is it that I feel like I'm here to do? A big part of that is really embracing what I call all of our awesome humanness. 

00:05:04:05 - 00:05:15:13

I really believe everyone has something really unique to contribute, to create in this life. And again, it doesn't have to be art. And in order to do that, we really need to honor our humanness. 

00:05:16:02 - 00:05:34:24

I want to talk about my story. I don't want to talk about my story, but I want to touch on it to give context to our listeners about why creativity plays such a big role in my life and how we're here today. As Nataly mentioned, we met and that was it. That was really it, right? It was like, okay, cool. 

00:05:35:15 - 00:05:36:15

That's what we did. Yeah. 

00:05:36:17 - 00:05:56:26

Bye. And then years later, Nataly moved from New York City to Boston, maybe 5 or 6 years later. After that, I moved from New York City to Boston with my family, and we reconnected because we were two New Yorkers in Boston. I think we both needed a little more. Grit, then Boston could offer us. Boston's a great city. 

00:05:56:28 - 00:06:03:16

By a little more can means a lot more grit and umph and color and soul. But please keep going. 

00:06:03:18 - 00:06:28:11

I always joke. People always ask me, What's the difference between Boston and New York? And this is my best answer. In New York City. If you were to rip your clothes off and streak down the street, everyone would be cheering you on. In Boston. If you were to rip your clothes off and streak down the street, everyone would be coming after you, tackling you so the cops could arrest you. 

00:06:29:07 - 00:06:51:01

Definitely. I actually thought you were going to go a different direction. I think in New York, if you do that, most people won't pay attention. Yeah, because that is not the weirdest thing they saw that day. No. Right. That's just like a thing. So I was like, you can do that in New York, but not many people care because that's a really boring part of the day. And yes, in Boston, the moment you take your shirt off, you'll be on the ground. Yeah. Yes. 

00:06:51:22 - 00:07:10:19

Well said. Yeah, it was. I was in the city a day or two ago and I was actually I had my camera and I was shooting and I got reminded about how much I loved just the openness in New York City because I was shooting. There was this guy who had like a shirt off in a like a sequin jacket on. It was really cool looking. And I just had my camera in his face shooting him. He could care less. 

00:07:10:27 - 00:07:12:15

Of course. Yeah, whatever. It was. 

00:07:12:17 - 00:07:44:16

Great. So I was in the startup world and for a number of years I was just doing what I did and thought I was supposed to do. And as a kid and throughout my whole life, I had always had this itch to make documentaries. And I've always wanted to do that. In fact, in college I was a business major, but my major allowed me to take. It wasn't a minor, but it was like an outside concentration in another school. And so the only classes I ever took that weren't business were journalism. And I really wanted to do that, but I was always scared to do that. 

00:07:44:22 - 00:08:15:17

There were a couple of reasons in hindsight. One is I wanted to make money and also I was just scared of putting myself out there. When you start releasing your creativity, you put yourself out there for risk. Nataly, as she mentioned. She had gotten burnt out. And through that journey and correct me if I'm wrong, dive in here, had a spiritual experience and was inviting me to come to her home to join her for these spiritual talks conversations in her basement. 

00:08:16:04 - 00:08:47:00

I wasn't really into it because religion for me in spirituality is not who I am. Nataly was to come here and she happens to be such a close friend that eventually I was like, okay, I'm coming because I wanted to support you, Nataly, but I still didn't want to go. So I get, I get to Nataly's house, we're in her basement. It's like me and ten moms and a bowl of chocolate, which was great chocolate, by the way. And to set the stage for everybody. 

00:08:47:02 - 00:08:52:28

We were sitting in a circle. The lights were off, more or less. They were like candles and lo. 

00:08:53:00 - 00:08:53:15

Yeah, yeah. 

00:08:53:17 - 00:09:18:15

And this bowl of chocolate. Everything that you and the ladies think it was mostly women were talking about, like I just didn't have an interest in. And I was there for you to offer you support. And I'm listening. And you bring up a book. And she says, before our next session, I want you all to read this and then we'll talk about it. And I'm like, oh, you know, I got I have. 

00:09:19:12 - 00:09:22:09

On top of everything, she's giving me reading assignments. 

00:09:24:18 - 00:10:00:20

I'm getting homework. So. So I, I basically I'm like, okay, I'm not doing this. But what I did do was buy the audiobook on Audible. Got in the car, forgot where it was going and put it on. The book was called The Surrender Experiment. The premise of the book is that the universe has been around much longer than we have, and we're all just here riding along as part of the universe, and that we kind of need to go with the flow and stop fighting it. 

00:10:01:04 - 00:10:11:20

And I realized at that moment that I had been fighting everything my entire life. I had been kicking doors down as opposed to seeing the open doors and walking through them. 

00:10:12:18 - 00:10:13:03

Mm. 

00:10:13:16 - 00:10:39:17

What the book says is that if you listen to the universe or if you're aware of the universe and you are aware of where the universe wants you to go and you just are open to it, things start unfolding for you the way they're supposed to unfold. So again, I'm still reading this book and I'm like, This is a bunch of hooey. But I was really intrigued and 

00:10:41:08 - 00:11:01:12

I didn't buy into it. But what it did do for me was trigger the idea that I've always wanted to be a documentary filmmaker. And I literally said, Fuck it, I'm buying a camera. And I went to bed and got like a camera. And I remember it was like $300 used. 

00:11:01:14 - 00:11:23:12

I remember you texted me. I remember you texted me this. I remember very clearly. You texted me that you'd read the book and that I don't know the words you said, but kind of like what you said. Now, I don't really buy the whole thing, but you know what? Fuck it. I've always wanted to do video. Remember that? And you said, I'm going to the store to buy a camera. 

00:11:23:15 - 00:11:51:26

And that's exactly what I did. I started making videos and they were terrible, but two people watched them. One of them was my friend Jay and the other was my friend Tamara. We went to Mozambique in 2008 and she was a documentary producer. Next thing you know, I'm in Cuba making a documentary and oh, before I go to Cuba, I tell my wife, Hey, sweetie, I'm going to Cuba to make a documentary. And she's like, What the hell are you talking about? You don't even own a camera. And I'm like, Well, I've actually bought a camera one. 

00:11:52:04 - 00:12:23:19

I just want to jump in before you get too far in the story, because think it's such an important thing, what you got from the book. Right. That, you know, we have to we just want to be open to the universe because things will unfold. So I just want to give that a little bit color because since then, I've begun to live in a very different way. And I think that the really important insight is that it's not like there is fate, there is this perfect flow and we're just have to enter it because that's not really how it is. 

00:12:23:21 - 00:12:53:29

Think of it as being in Buddhism. They talk about interdependent co arising and the idea that there is no universe without you and there's no you without the universe. So it's not like there's these conditions for you and you have to catch this flow and go with it. It's not like fate. It's not like Ken was destined to do video because Ken could have ignored his inner desires and callings. We might have never met. We might have never had that thing in my basement. So it's not like we're destined for anything. 

00:12:54:01 - 00:13:27:09

But we all have, I believe, a calling. And Plato used to call it a demon. You might call it a soul essence, character, whatever. For some people like Picasso, it's very clear Picasso was born to be a painter. He was painting at two. Mozart was composing symphonies and music at four. Okay, So for some people, it's like nothing else you can do. For most of us, it's not that loud. It's maybe we have these desires or impulses or callings, but we can choose not to pay attention. 

00:13:27:11 - 00:14:01:02

And I just think it's really important because creativity is a choice. We all have it. The universe is creative, but it asks us to really pay attention both to things within us and what pulls at us, what interests us, what causes us, and also external things. Can I bet you $1 billion right now, which obviously I have sitting right next to me that throughout your life, if you look back at your life, I bet there were experiences and people that like were nudging you somehow in that direction. 

00:14:01:04 - 00:14:32:22

So we have to listen both within and externally because we're in this relationship with this flow, with this universe. Creativity, like Carl Jung, defined creativity as a core human instinct in addition to hunger, sexuality, reflection and action. So all of us have it. And it's also part of universe. Every day universe creates things, leaves on trees, oxygen, water. But it's only when we see ourselves in that co-dependent, interdependent, rising that we're working together to create our reality. 

00:14:32:24 - 00:14:48:05

It's actually really bidirectional. And we can either work with it in such a way that we create something flourishing or like you and I did for a lot of our life. We can deny both the internal things we hear and external nudges and keep trudging along. 

00:14:48:07 - 00:15:04:12

I think that's a really good differentiation and I would feel the same way because after I got into this and started doing video and one thing led to another and now photography started getting in front of me and I've gone down the path and here we are today because of these openings. 

00:15:04:14 - 00:15:04:29

Or. 

00:15:05:12 - 00:15:06:18

I don't know what you call them. 

00:15:06:27 - 00:15:38:13

I really see them. Like if you think about, you know, and again, everyone can use their own word, but if you think of that, we all have something beyond our physicality, something beyond the brain and the body. So a soul, right, An essence. And it has a purpose in this lifetime. Whether you believe it's eternal or not, there is a purpose for it. We're not just here bumbling around, you know. My mentor, Jean Houston, says we're not here like a sack of bones. That's not who we are. That's what modern science will have us believe. 

00:15:38:24 - 00:16:10:29

So our soul has a purpose. But again, it's not fate. It's not predestined. It's not some kind of. Nataly was brought here to do this. There's a lot of variations on it, so we have to listen to that. And then we have to be open when the universe creates opportunities for us to actualize, to take an action on that purpose. Right? So it's both of those things. And I think that ultimately, I think is all about creativity because we are creating together with the universe, we are creating this life and creating. 

00:16:11:01 - 00:16:43:24

For some it may mean creating art like photography and painting, and for some it has nothing to do with art at all. But every day you're creating the day you're having, you're creating yourself. And that's love. Can your story because it's like the ultimate representation of that. Like once you began to really honor what your soul was calling for you to do and take action, I think that's really, really important. Like people talk about manifesting and how manifesting requires action. You have to take action. You have to go and buy the camera and make a video, shitty video, whatever. 

00:16:43:26 - 00:17:19:03

You got to do it. We have to do the things. And the way that I think about I just want to share this because it's an image that I love in anything we do. Like we have to let the universe know that we are open. We want it. We are ready. The way to let the universe know is not by thinking about us, by doing it. So you started doing the things and the universe in my head just went, Oh, okay, he's ready. Let's give him opportunities. It's not like we passively receive. We have to do the things. But when we started doing them, I think of it as like this vortex we're creating and the universe goes, Oh my God, look, there's a live one. 

00:17:19:05 - 00:17:38:28

There she is. Let's give her some stuff. It's not magic. It's not like wishful thinking. It's because the flow of the universe to which you're ultimately connected is like, Yeah, they're ready. Let's give them the things. Because if you don't start taking action, the universe like, yeah, whatever. Nataly doesn't care. You can just think about the things you have to do, the things. 

00:17:39:05 - 00:17:47:00

You mentioned, creativity and you focus on happiness. How does creativity fit into all that and lead to happiness? 

00:17:47:26 - 00:18:18:06

So like if you don't eat right, hunger is a core human instinct. So if you are hungry and you don't feed yourself, you cannot thrive. Okay. You're going to struggle. The same with creativity. It is part of all of us. And again, it has nothing to do with art. For some of us, the creative calling calls us to create art. Great. And in our society, when we talk about creativity, we equate it with making art. Like when I talk about my painting, people tell me, Oh my God, you're so lucky. You're creative. I'm not creative. 

00:18:18:08 - 00:18:48:14

If you are breathing human being, you are creative. You don't have to be an artist. You are creating because creativity is really about pulling down what is uniquely yours and sharing it in some way. You can be creative by doing a PowerPoint at work or the way you handle a meeting or cooking dinner for your family. You're being as creative, and it's essential to happiness, well-being, because if you don't allow yourself to express yourself in whatever way, like for Ken, it's photography. 

00:18:48:16 - 00:19:22:00

For me, it's art. And speaking for you, it can be anything at all. But if you stifle that because you don't think it's what you should do is you're stifling your being your humanness and you cannot truly feel happiness if you're stifling a part of yourself. And so to me, they're intricately linked because creativity is a human instinct, just like other instincts, right? Core human instinct. So hunger or activity, because thinking about things or planning things or dreaming about things, those are wonderful things and they create nothing. 

00:19:22:08 - 00:19:29:26

My kind of personal mantra is follow your doing, start doing, and then you will figure it out. It'll blossom. 

00:19:30:17 - 00:19:38:28

I was in South Carolina with you and heard you speak and you spoke about my brain or not my brain, but brains. 

00:19:39:03 - 00:19:40:02

Yeah. The human brain. 

00:19:40:10 - 00:19:40:25

The human. 

00:19:40:27 - 00:19:41:12

Brain. 

00:19:41:21 - 00:20:01:13

And how the brain holds us back. And I have a clip. I want to play that. And I wanted to touch on this because everything you just spoke about, talking about creativity, creating, just doing it as the key to all this is not easy for everybody. And it wasn't easy for me. 

00:20:02:12 - 00:20:13:15

Your brain does not care about your happiness. Not at all. Actually, your brain does not care about your feelings. Your brain only cares about one thing and one thing only. Any guesses? 

00:20:15:25 - 00:20:17:09

Staying alive. I mean, you guys. 

00:20:17:11 - 00:20:23:02

Are just staying a lot. I mean, that was like that was seriously in, like, unison. I love it. 

00:20:23:04 - 00:20:27:24

Yes. Your brain only cares about keeping you safe from danger. 

00:20:28:10 - 00:20:49:10

And it's not a bad thing because I like staying alive. Somebody else was grateful for staying alive. But the downside of that is because your brain is constantly focused on how to keep you safe from danger. It is always looking out for what is wrong, what is negative, what could go wrong. And so your brain has what's called a negativity bias. 

00:20:50:20 - 00:21:23:22

I love that you played that and think it's so important to share this. The human brain is very much biologically evolved, as I say in the clip, to keep us safe from danger. Right. To help us survive. It is very good at making sure we don't do things that might possibly endanger us physically or psychologically. Right. This fear thing evolved like when we used to, you know, they'd be like a pack of wolves running at us. Okay? And your brain is really good at, like, noticing it and then going into fight or flight so you can figure out how to protect yourself. 

00:21:23:24 - 00:22:07:05

And that's wonderful. We need that. What the human brain is good at is survival. But we are not here to just survive. We are here to thrive, to flourish. And this is like my big thing. So we have to work with our brain. We have to understand that that's what it's doing because it's just trying to make sure we are safe. But then we have to understand, like if you have this calling or this pull to do photography, to make art, to write, to write a blog post and you have fear, this is really helpful to understand where is the fear coming from? So being rejected, being judged to your brain is the same thing as being eaten by wolves. 

00:22:07:07 - 00:22:39:16

It doesn't have a difference. So if you have that thing that's holding you back, like Ken talked about how he was afraid he wouldn't make money or didn't want to put himself out there, it's really important to recognize where that fear is coming from. It's not because you're weak, it's your brain trying to protect you. But once you understand that, you really have to embrace the fact that you are in charge of your brain and you can talk to your brain, you can talk back to your brain and remind yourself like, listen, brain, I know you're afraid because you're afraid of what? People might judge me as if I put my art or my work out there. 

00:22:39:24 - 00:22:52:20

And then you want to give yourself a serious pep talk and talk about, like, why it's important to you. What happens if the worst case scenario happens? You still have friends who love you. You can still get through it, just your brain trying to make sure you survive. 

00:22:53:24 - 00:23:10:15

My next question is probably going to send us into a three hour discussion, so I'll ask it. And if there's a way to get to it without draining everyone's phone batteries while they're listening to this episode, what do you tell your brain to combat that? 

00:23:11:11 - 00:23:45:27

I can make this pretty actionable because I've had a lot of practice and I teach a lot of practice. Just understanding that that's why you're feeling what you're feeling is a really long way there. Like that in and of itself opens up a lot of energy because you are like, Oh, I get it. This is what my brain is doing. When your brain is focusing on what if I fail? What if people judge me again? Your brain has a negativity bias. It's focusing on the negative shift. And think about why doing this thing photography or videos or making art, whatever. 

00:23:45:29 - 00:24:11:27

Why is it meaningful to you? And we humans derive a sense of meaning and purpose when what we are doing, when we recognize how it contributes to other people. And so when I make art, which I'm a completely self-taught artist, I only started painting like six years ago, like I have no training of any kind and my brain is in there going, Oh my God, but what if you suck? What do people hate it? You're not Picasso at all. That What a waste of time. What a waste. 

00:24:13:13 - 00:24:46:23

I really stop and think about how not just seeing my painting, but how am I talking about my painting, How could it help somebody else? And it shifts my brain out of me, me, me. How will people judge me? What if I fail and into how is what I'm doing? How could that be helpful to other people? That is probably the most effective thing. Because, Ken, like you've inspired so many people. This interview that we're doing, which is like creativity. We're creating something. Hopefully it inspires and helps a lot of people to pursue their creativity. 

00:24:46:25 - 00:25:24:09

So shifting out of the fear and into how does doing this thing, why does it feel meaningful to you? How does it help other people is very, very powerful. Public speaking is the number one fear apparently adults have. And so they've done a lot of experiments where they have people do this. So before you go on stage, you think about like, who could this help? And it reduces a lot of the stress and the nerves because it shifts you out of that fear. The other thing to say back to your brain is to really have a pep talk about thinking through the worst case scenario, but really rationally brain. 

00:25:24:11 - 00:26:00:26

Let's talk about the worst thing that can happen because your brain is ruminating on it and it's helpful to like shine a flashlight on it. Okay, I'm going to paint an artwork and it's going to be awful. And people are going to look at it on Instagram because where I share stuff and they're going to make comments, they're going to be like or worst of all, think can you can probably relate to this. Like when there's no reaction for it's like the worst. Okay, so that happens. Is that the worst case scenario? No, the worst case scenario is somebody from my work says, Wow, Nataly, what are you doing? You're not really a serious business person. 

00:26:00:28 - 00:26:32:03

What is with this art that so actually talk through, here's the worst thing that can happen and then ask your brain, All right, let's say that happens. Are we going to be okay? Because the truth is, in 99.999% of cases. Yeah, you'll be fine. Okay, That happens. What could I do to, like, get through it? All right, I'm going to call my friend Ken, and we're going to come over and have some chocolate together. I'm going to go for a run. Whatever. Talk through the worst case scenario. 

00:26:32:05 - 00:26:52:15

Because when you do that, you and your brain together are going to realize it's not the worst thing. It's like, we'll be fine. And I do this all the time because just because I teach this stuff doesn't make me impervious. It really works. But you have to again, take charge. You have to talk to your brain. You can't just listen to the fear based thoughts. 

00:26:53:16 - 00:27:00:02

Nataly, is there anything that I didn't ask you or touch on that you feel our audience needs to know? 

00:27:01:03 - 00:27:06:11

Good question. You know, one of the things that really helps me as. 

00:27:07:27 - 00:27:34:12

A human being was going to say as a creative. But we're all creatives as a human being is to really ask myself, like to pause. I try to do this once a day when I catch myself because we all are like worrying about stuff like what will other people think? Or I'm not good enough, you know, those voices of doubt and just pause myself and ask like the life that I'm going to live if I keep listening to this voice, is that the life I really want to live? 

00:27:36:05 - 00:28:07:02

And that really, really helps, because the answer is no. The answer is like no one on their deathbed said, Wow, I wish I tried fewer things that were important to me. No one says that at the end of our life, we don't say like, Wow, I really wish I lived a safer life. No one says that. And so asking myself that question really helps. So I offer that to everyone. Like we have this gift. I really see life as a as like a gift. We have this gift and we're not here to survive it. 

00:28:07:04 - 00:28:37:11

We're not here to tough it out. We're really here to flourish in it, to expand, to grow, to create this life. And I just think that from time to time, pulling out, recognizing you always have choices and asking yourself like these thoughts that are holding me back. Am I going to be okay with living a life that listens to them? And the last thing I want to say is there's a lot of research, modern research that says that especially in America, we don't think a lot about our future selves. 

00:28:40:24 - 00:29:08:06

Hey, it's Ken from the big photo hunt, and I wanted to take a quick break to say thank you for listening and for being a part of our community. Of course, if you're listening to this and saying to yourself, what in the heck is this lunatic talking about? Or you're just looking for a friendly place to get photography feedback from others. Check out our website at big photo hunt.com. Okay. That's all I've got for my commercial here. Thanks again for listening today. Back to the show. 

00:29:12:11 - 00:29:43:18

Because we don't think about our future selves. We do a lot of short term stuff, right? Like we smoke, we drink junk food because we're not connecting it to how our brain has. It's called a recency bias. Like just like, I'll be fine, I'll just have this cookie, but later I'll be healthier and we don't think about what it does. And I think it's the same for like not pursuing our things that are calling to us. We're like, okay, well, I'm not going to do it now. I'll do it later. So I think what really helps is to really think about your future self. 

00:29:43:20 - 00:30:07:02

Like think about yourself 20 years from now, 30 years from now, and talk to that person. Like, what would that person say to you? Because I think it would always be something that calls you forward, that calls you like, Yes, I can go buy that camera. Go buy the camera. Go, go do it. And so I think that having these conversations with your future self is also really helpful. 

00:30:07:25 - 00:30:23:17

Your books, which for our listeners I highly recommend. Are happier now. And the awesome human project and you can find them on Amazon. And where can people find you to follow you or learn more about you? 

00:30:23:23 - 00:30:39:01

Nataly kogan.com is my website and my my first name is spelled with a Y and Atal y Kogan and I'm on all the socials, primarily Instagram and LinkedIn at Nataly Kogan. Com Connect follow ask questions. 

00:30:39:15 - 00:31:00:11

For our listeners. When I was putting this episode together, I had to zero in on a few things to speak about because we can't take your whole day up. But for more Nataly, which I highly recommend, check out her books and follow her on social media. You will be happy. Pun not intended, actually. Nataly, thank you so much. 

00:31:00:13 - 00:31:06:16

Really, This was a gift. This was a really big gift for me. So thank you. This was a big gift. 

00:31:07:23 - 00:31:22:16

Thank you so much for joining me for today's episode. Our next show will feature more valuable stories from our community members. If you'd like to audition to be a guest, please visit Big Photo Hunt for more information. Thanks again for listening today.